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43 Comments:
LOL. You mean we won't have to walk out when the music starts?!
why go to heaven when we can live in ATI land?
Oh my gosh.. this is insane.. pure genius. can i see if i can be the drummer in the harder music section of heaven???
I was a little less than impressed, X-er, I found this a little too goofy for my liking. I think I prefer your closer-to-the-truth satire. :o)
We will, of course, be in an entirely different section from any Catholics who managed to make it to Heaven, right?
Only eternity will reveal the benefits and joy of Christians who receive this rhema that has come by way of The Rev. Dr. William Gothard. These are very thrilling days for me; I have one question though: who do I make the check out to?
Yes, these are thrilling days indeed and it gladens my heart to see the army that God is raising up in these evil times to show the world a "new" approach to heaven.
that would then be a "new approach to death" ???
I do hope that there won't be any defrauding young ladies in tight white robes.
This is an answer to prayer. I have long been concerned about friends and relatives who have not wholly embraced the Gospel and the way of life.
Knowing that I will be able to "come out from among them" even in heaven is just one more example of God's great mercy. What a huge relief, knowing that dating and backbeats do not automatically sentence my loved ones to eternal damnation.
that is _good_... and i also liked the post about Catholics being in a different section...
Thank you SO much for this "satirical" site. As a result of many of your musings and postings and overall sarcastic and hurtful attitude towards families that try to make a difference in their children's lives (despite human error on the side of IBLP leadership) we will be re-enrolling in ATI for another year.
We don't always agree with Bill or those on the board or in positions of "leadership" (in many cases, we find a large majority of the leaders unworthy of such responsibility) but we DO agree with the biblical PRINCIPLES laid out within the ATI material. Our methods and applications may not always coincide with what BG teaches, but we endeavor to ensure that it lines up with scripture.
I just cannot in good conscience let blogs like this disrupt the good (and there has been a lot of good) that many "unsuspecting" families have accomplished because their heart was set, not on pleasing Bill Gothard or adhereing to a set of man made rules, but on "rescuing the perishing".
Many Christians in churches today - evangelical and otherwise - are disgruntled with the worldliness they see creeping into the church. Unfortunately, unless those of us with convictions (not judgemental attitudes or Pharisaical spirits) stand up for what is right according to God's Word, subsequent generations will continue to buy into the lies of the enemy and every man will do what is right in his/her own eyes. The ultimate form of rebellion - worshipping self.
Thank you for making it an easier decision this year. For awhile there, because of past hurts within ATI, I was considering withdrawing my family. I see now that I cannot give up the fight for my children's hearts. The enemy has already stolen one away. God - NOT Bill Gothard or an organization - has opened my eyes to the reality that blogs like this, often times filled with poison (not necessarily by you)and selfish and bitter attitudes brought about by wounded spirits do far more damage than rock music or immorality combined!
Rather than respond vindictively, please pray for those of us who still feel led to remain in the program. Somehow positive change must come to ATI - but if we all bail and slander it and its leaders, how will we be any different from the world? Let us not be each other's enemy but lift one another up with words of encouragement. And for those reading my words - may God heal your heart if it has been broken or wounded by ATI - may God erase the memories of TRUE abuse - may God restore the joy of your salvation - and may He bless you with His everlasting love and peace.
An ATI Dad
ATI Dad,
You sound like a decent person with good intentions. I respect you for wanting the best for your family.
Please hear me when I say that if you continue to make your kids suffer by exposing them to a strict, works based theology/life style, you will lose more of them.
I've seen it happen a number of times. Either that or they try to kill themselves. Doubt me if you will, but off hand I've seen at least 8 or 9 families go through this (losing kids and/or suicide attempts). Those are just the ones I know personally.
X-ATI guy is not the "enemy" - the enemy is thinking that you, me, or any "program" can save us from worldliness or from ourselves. Jesus is the only one who can do that.
Perfection belongs to God. By His grace, Christ's perfection is substituted for our sin. ATI is not gonna save your kids or your family. Nor are you going to save ATI.
Ati Dad,
Thanks for your words. I do believe that good has been done through ATI. My personal experience has led me to want to be as far away from it as possible. The biggest problem I have with it is when people follow the teachings of an individual rather than Christ Himself. It is much easier to follow a list of rules rather than go through the process of developing a relationship with our Savior.
I could see from your words that you are one of the few that chooses to filter what you receive from ATI, keeping the good and discarding what is more on the side of human error. For that I say, keep up the good work and may God richly bless you and your family.
In terms of the integrity of this site, I find that through the satire and humor, it brings me back to the truth that NONE of us are infallible or above error in our understanding and beliefs.
No, I do not find that this blog fosters bitterness or anger in my soul towards ATI. Rather, it brings me back to the simplicity of the grace that is available to everyone, regardless of where we are or have been.
Thanks to this matchless grace through our Savior, we can be free to experience the abundant life He has promised us, in spite of the wretchedness of our humanity.
This is what I wish for everyone that is or has ever been involved with or hurt by the ATI/IBLP organization. It has taken me years to get to this point, and I thank God for bringing me this far.
Dear ATI Dad:
You said "Somehow positive change must come to ATI."
Are you sure? Christianity will survive even when IBLP and ATI completely cease to exist. The assumption that Gothard/IBLP have truths never before presented in the history of the world is exactly the kind of error that many of us have rejected. We haven't walked away from God. But we only need one man - Jesus Christ - to show us the way.
"...truths never before presented in the history of the world..."
That's a good way of saying Gothard has shifted the paradigm of Christain living; before Bill came along, Christians spoke of something called "God's Will." Now, after Gothard, we speak of "God's Best." We are no longer content with something good, God's Will, for our lives because now we can aquire something better, God's Best.
In the basic seminar Bill likes to say, "The good things in life are the enemies of the best things in life." Maybe on this point he's right.
ATI dad, I think if you carefully read over this site you will find no ill-will towards families trying to make a difference in the lives of their children. You may find some hard feelings towards the IBLP leadership and their "human errors" because some of us choose to hold leaders accountable for their actions rather than write abusive actions off as "mistakes." Kudos to you for trying to make a difference in the lives of your children, but if you knowingly subject your children to the abuse found in ATI training centers God WILL hold you accountable.
ATI Dad -
Anon was right. My own sister became addicted to painkillers and has attempted suicide more than once due to the destructive ATI leagalism she grew up surrounded by.
As a young woman who went through this situation in my own family, I know how damaging and painful Gothard's teaching's are. The Christian life is not about rules - it is about Christ. Gothard's teachings do not focus on Christ - they focus on the outward appearance and a stringent set of rules. Your children can see this and will not respect the legalism.
You know in your heart that the Christian family should not revolve around a man's (BG) teachings - the family should revolve around Christ. Your children do not need to wear certain clothes or associate with the same sex to worship Christ. They do not need to be home educated to have a strong relationship with God. The majority of Bill's teachings twist scripture in their very base - it is not Christlike for you and your family to emulate the unscriptural rules!
I was raised in ATI from the time I was 9, until I turned 18. On the outside, I was a wonderful ATI apprenticeship student. On the inside I was filled with bitterness and hate towards my parents, their ATI friends and the ATI organization. I saw through the Gothard facade, and knew that there was no scripture base - I had been raised in the Baptist church. I know now that I was not rebellious, but simply had Christ in me leading me to the truth. My parents and their ATI associates accused me of rebellion, and advised counseling and seclusion from my peers.
Six years ago my parents saw the destruction that Bill Gothard's teachings were causing in our family, and they got out. We changed churches, and of course, because we left ATI we had to change friends. My parents have apologized thousands of times to me and my 5 younger brothers and sisters. We have attended family counseling and personal counseling in an attempt to remove these "strongholds" of works-founded teaching. Each of us still struggle in different ways because of the effect of this organization.
I could go on for hours about the ways that ATI hurt me, and my self esteem. I believed I was a "bad kid". I thought my parents hated me and were ashamed of me. I knew that what I was being told was wrong - but then I was told that I had a rebellious spirit when I would challenge it. I am now married, and live 8 hours from my parents. My mother and I still struggle at times in our relationship, because of the distance created between us during that time.
My prayers are with you, your wife and your children. Most of all, your children. Please don't hurt their young hearts and lives with continued exposure to the hypocritical teachings that Bill Gothard promotes. God bless you.
ATI-Dad
I echo the thoughts of the many who have written before me. I grew up in the program and am now 30 yrs old with three kids of my own. My wife and are a part of a growing church and are active in teaching our children the truths of scripture. I will never expose my children to the teachings of Bill Gothard. ATI is not a healthy organization. It pulls families apart and pits parents against thier children. My salvation (from ATI) came when my parents chose me over the organization. Please do this for your own kids.
I can testify to what qoe is saying...I was brought up in ATI and now as an adult I struggle every day with a very warped view of God. Whenever something God or God related comes up it often brings back horrible memories for me, instead of being encouraging or inspiring.
My sympathies go out to ATI Dad's children...my own dad and mom didn't see that much wrong with ATI, but then, they were never students in a program that claims never to use "peer pressure," but in reality uses it to make everyone conform.
For Anonymous to gave the caution about suicide...I second that very strongly. There have been several times where I contemplated taking my own life, so dark was the cloud of judgement and a sense of overwhelming failure because I could not live up to the standards set by the Institute.
Now, four years removed from any contact with the Institute, I find such a sense of identification with the thoughts expressed on this site. As I have been telling my mom for years, if I cannot find something to laugh about in relation to my experiences with the Institute, then I will find no therapy for my pain. Laughter has proved, in this case, to be the best medicine.
X-ATI guy, you have blessed this X-ATI girl in many ways through your gentle humor and sometimes biting satire that rings out with stunning truth.
re: the ATI dad who called this a "satirical" site and put the word SATIRICAL in quotes: It seems to me that the person who started this site is not bitter, and the core people who visit this site are not bitter. There _may_ be one or two people who visit this site who have a serious problem with actual bitterness, but that doesn't mean that this is a bad site that encourages people to be bitter. C'mon now... A little satire and good humor never hurt anybody...
Dear ATI dad:
Thank you for your words of encouragement. I'm not a regular visitor of this site, but stopped in today and feel my spirit discouraged by the bitterness that is evident here.
The problem as I see it is that, rather than taking Christ's light to the world and seeking to edify others through Godly words and by example, they sit like Shimei and cast stones at those who, though not free from fault, are at least making an effort to do so.
I don't agree with Bill on a lot of things and I doubt I'll put my family in ATI, but there is peace through forgiveness. A peace that few posters on this site seem to have.
Thanks, Dad, for speaking up!
RE: Ati Dad
Hey, I am grateful that there are fathers out there who want to protect and help there children grow! BUT I sincerly believe that it is NOT our responsibility to make our children Godly....That is our Lords perogative, (would you expect or force a non-believer to be godly? It is God who chooses who will come to Him.) Scripture says to train a child in the way He should go (which is Gods laws NOT so called "good principles"). It isnt our job to make "good little Christians" it is our job to show Christ by being an example to our children, not forcing on our children a pharisaical belief system. Although you may understand Gods grace your children may not because of ATI'S way of approaching things. You want the best for your family, are you teaching that "works make you right with God" by your actions and the Pharisaical laws you place on them? or are you showing them a God of grace who paid the penalty for they're sin? I believe those who realize Gods grace are far more inclined to live there lives purely, and on TRUE biblical principles than those who false principles have been forced on since early childhood.(Please...you are wasting your money on ati, use it to show compassion to other believers, THAT will show your children what TRUE christian living REALLY is!)
- An X-atier who God so graciously saved.
x-ati son: Hmmmmm...wonder what you're doing on a stone-casting site? Just checking out how bad we actually are? I wonder how many souls you could have saved in the time it took you to browse this site.
I would just like to observe that almost every one of you has bought into the idea that Mr. Gothard is, or should be, perfect in all of his ideas.
HE IS A MAN. Give it up. You say, "he should be held accountable" or "his teaching don't really revolve around Christ"... come on. Is he supposed to be perfect? Is every head of an organization supposed to be perfect? And if so, how many actually are? And if so, how about every Christian? Why aren't you perfect? Yes, he should be accountable for the things he does wrong, but see my point. You are holding him to a standard you wouldn't hold yourself to.
We all obviously think we have the right view of God, and He would probably come down and fool all of us. Look at what happened last time, those who claimed to know all about Him couldn't see that it was Him. Mr. Gothard is no different than you or me. He happens to head up a large organization, that has done ALOT of very good work, and influenced many people in a positive way. Yes, he has failings. I would submit to you that many of them are others interpretation of his meaning (not his words, his meaning).
So I guess I would ask that you satirize, even vindictively, the policies, or ideas you think are wrong, but stop beating on the man. He is doing the best he can.
Dear Anon #30 (Gothard defender),
You say that Mr. Gothard is not perfect. We know that. And we know we're not perfect either. So instead we should start beating on the policies, not the man. Geez, I wonder who is responsible for 99.9% of all IBLP/ATI policies?
My goal is NOT to get to heaven, but to have a relationship with my Father.
ATI Dad, my concern is that you are trying to use a formula to keep your kids hearts and not have a relationship with them. ATI is a legalistic structure. It will not help you love your kids and it will NOT make your kids love you more.
Dude, give up on the bullshit about legalistic structure. Look at the heart beneath it for one bloody minute. "You need a relationship" stop with that crap. Yes, you do need a relationship with your children, or Jesus, or your dog. Fine, we get that. How do you go about getting that relationship? Don't you think that maybe Mr. Gothard is trying to give you some tools to create that relationship that got alittle twisted and misused? As for legalism, how about the legalism that says, " it's not about doing anything, it's about a relationship" and then NEVER DOES ANYTHING. Apparently you and most of the other readers of this blog were already so far gone that nothing your parents did could pull you back, they tried everything they knew. So they got shafted a bit, probably because they weren't discerning enough to see the errors that are inherent in EVERY Christian ministry (hello, use the mind you were given, you should never sign off on anything without thinking it through). Ever think maybe it WAS your attitude? You didn't WANT a relationship with your parents because it would interfere with YOUR other wants. Try a little true soul searching and stop complaining.
Mr. Gothard has impacted many lives positively. Have you had any impact on ANY? I sincerely doubt it. You are like every other Christian who goes around complaining about some policy or person and NEVER DOING ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT. GROW UP. Do you you have the guts to stand up and do ANYTHING significant in life?
To the last Anon commentter. So, because many of us were personally wounded by the "UNIVERSAL NON-OPTIONAL PRINCIPLES" that BillyG promotes that are nothing more then a diafication of his own opinion WE have a problem with rebellion? This is why it is hardly practical to attempt to point out to a Gothardite the fallacies we have seen. It becomes a point of our being "bitter" or "rebelleous" or.. well the list goes on. The very statement that we are being "rebelleous" is an indication that you believe that BillyG's principles are the ONLY way to get to heaven, to be saved, etc.
Personally, while I have been very outspoken in the past about IBLP/ATI/BillyG and I still have a heart for thouse bound in the bondage of IBLP I don't think that it's worth it. Gothardites aren't willing to listen, and I'm not willing to go back under that bondage. So, I enjoy a good satire of the very things that held me captive. It helps me laugh at the things that crushed my spirit, that made me an egotistical, elietist "christian." I'm not less egotistical now, it's part of all of human nature, but I know where I accepted the stumbling blocks that were placed in my way and made my own bad choices.
I know that in my family IBLP did and still does drive a wedge between me and some of my family members. I have a sister who accepts everything that Bill teaches as gospel truth. She has asked me to never try to explain to her how it could be any other way. That BREAKS my heart. In an area filled with Gothardites, how I am supposed to find humor about it's oppression if persons such as the Anon Dad attempt to close down those pointing out the stupidness of the program?
X-er.. Good work mate. Keep it up. Here's one soul, bound to Christ's light yoke of Grace, who enjoys your work. Thanks.
Seabhag
"The very statement that we are being "rebelleous" is an indication that you believe that BillyG's principles are the ONLY way to get to heaven, to be saved, etc."
First off, I never said you were rebellious, which I think indicates what YOU think you are. Secondly, even Bill wouldn't say his principles were the only way to get to heaven. Thirdly, MANY people agree with those principles, even if they don't call them the same thing (John Eldridge has similar ideas in his books, Peter Kreeft has expounded on similar ideas, and Bruce Wilkinson has as well. So has Elizabeth Elliott.) Your sister is wrong to take what ANYONE says as gospel truth. The only one you can trust that way is Jesus Christ, and even he said to check it out.
Again, your language that he has "deified" his own opinion and that you disagree with the principles is just silly. You don't really disagree. You disagree with the application, you disagree with some of the things, but you DO believe you were designed with a purpose, you DO beleve that sucess isn't about what you get, you DO believe that you must be personally responsible for your actions (at least you hold BG to that)... so cut the crap man.
You still didn't answer my challenge. You seem to think that "rescuing" people from Gothard is a worthy calling which is NOT what I asked. Do you do anything really significant?
"Apparently you and most of the other readers of this blog were already so far gone that nothing your parents did could pull you back, they tried everything they knew"
What else is "so far gone" besides being rebellious? If you were a member of the JW and had seen the light, wouldn't you want to help get people out from under that bondage?
To claim that your ideas, are "Non-optional Universal Principles" means that they are THE only way to, happieness, success, or whatever else you are claiming that the principles will bring you to.. Bill does this in the Basic, and other seminars. This means that to take Bill at what he says at face value means that his is the ONLY way to get to these things. I know from personal experience that following those things about distroyed my life. Once I realized that God did have a purpose for my life and it wasn't following some man who claimed to have a direct link to Him I realized the dangers that I saw in IBLP.
All those things said. Most people I knew in IBLP were quite content to stay in their training centers, and not worry about going out into the world to spread the Word. As for me? I'm a known Christian on a campus of 22K+ students at a secular university. I don't shove religion down my classmates throats.. But I do attempt to live up to the standard that Christ set in His life. Which I fail to do every day an only through His Grace can I make any kind of difference. There are other things that I do as He leads. Including "saving people from Gothard" as you so bluntly put it. I can't do that. But maybe my witness that Bill's teachings have damaging effects on people's lives will make a difference in someone else's. But the point isn't to gorify what I do. It's to bring Glory to Him who died to cover "all" my sins with His Blood to cover for my unrightousness.
Do I disagree with Bill? Yeah, check out some of my old posts on my web-site. I'm a little less... gruff (I think) on the way that I feel about Bill and IBLP. But they do accurately represent the way that I saw it at the time. Do I still think that IBLP dangerous? Yes. But I'm not gonna go around slamming it into the faces of everyone I meet.. I hope. Do I still get really annoyed when people blast me for speaking out against Bill? Yeah. I think that it should at least be an open discussion rather then the "lets not talk about it" attitude I see everywhere. Anyways. I've got a story on there about what IBLP did in my own life. Read it if you want.
Meantime. Keep up the good work X-er. Satire can be a healthful thing. Humor is sorely lacking in the world and I doubt the Author of Humor would be happy if we stopped laughing at ourselves and circumstances around us.
Seabhag
ATI dad, I have not spoken to my father in over a year.
Why? Because he views me as one of the 'stolen' ones.
When you label your children as such, it is you who alienates your child and not vice versa.
When you say things like you have to fight for the hearts of your children it makes me cringe.
Your relationship with your children is based on trust and honor that goes both way.
When you take an aggessive and militant approach to parenting,it becomes an 'us against them' mentality.
Having grown up in that, I beg you to reconsider for the sake of the future relationship with your children.
The small gems you might feel you are finding in ATI will not compensate for the anger and inner turmoil it will bring to your children and family.
You present to us that we (X-ers) are selfish and bitter but I would present to you that these are merely a reflection of your own life.
Re-examine the descriptions you give of your relationship with your children.
Your child is stolen because he/she has chosen to walk away from your idealisms. It is selfishness which says my way only. Think like me. Act like me. It is selfishness and bitterness that labels your own flesh and blood as 'stolen.'
Why label him/her as such? Does it embarass you, this path your child has taken?
Perhaps that is the real issue?
Rejoining ATI is your choice and I can respect that as being your choice. One of the freedoms I have learned from leaving Gothardism.
What I can not understand as a parent is why you would intetionally place your children in harms way, armed only with the hope that you might be the 'saving grace' of Bill Gothard and ATI.
There is an element of arrogance to that thinking.
As a X-er, I grieve for what lays ahead for your children, for the 'stolen one.'
As a parent, you have lost my respect for knowingly bringing emotional, spiritual and mental harm to your doorstep.
May God have grace on you and may He protect the hearts and minds of your children.
-Annie
To the anonymous "dude, give up the bullshit" writer:
First of all, you are easily recognized as a Gothardite. You think that Bill provides honest-to-goodness "tools" and it is others who "twist and misuse" his "tools." That is soooooo typical Gothardite. It is always the victim's fault. We failed to look into the program enough before joining (never mind the fact that my family joined when I was a small child). We failed to see what God was teaching us through the "mistakes" of ATI leadership. Well, guess what--I'm not taking that kind of CRAP anymore. It is not my fault that I was abused by ATI and you can never pressure me into feeling that way.
Second of all, where are you getting this idea that we're "so far gone" and have no relationship with our parents? I have a wonderful and close relationship with my parents and they have discovered the lies and deception in ATI and Gothard as I have. They grieve that they sent me away to a training center where I was abused and they were kept in the dark. They thank God that they are out of the ATI cult and they have been able to do more for the Lord out of ATI than they ever could bound in the darkness of ATI. What you do not realize is that this is not a site full of "rebellious", "bitter" teenagers who want to blast ATI. Many of us are college students, married, and many of us are parents ourselves. We care about exposing some of the lies in ATI just in case others are open-minded enough to maybe realize some of these truths as we have. And we also have found this site to be a place of healing, laughter, and satire as we recover from some troubling experiences.
Your condemnation cannot control us any longer--we are free from you and your kind. So either come in the spirit of openess and understanding or back off, gothardite. We know what we are talking about--we were there.
To Anon @ 9.57:
Mr. Gothard has impacted many lives positively. Have you had any impact on ANY? I sincerely doubt it.
** Are you positively impacting lives by posting 'items' like that?
A bit of the pot calling the kettle negative.
Tisk tisk.
Hard to point the old finger-roo at the rest of the world when you have that nasty little totem pole sticking out your face.
And while we are at it...tell me how we guage our lives on the 'Positive Impacto-Meter'? Is it available through ATI? Can they be custom ordered with 'bling' options?**
Have you had any impact on ANY? I sincerely doubt it.
**I was under the impression that Christianity is not a works based belief system.**
You are like every other Christian who goes around complaining about some policy or person and NEVER DOING ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT.
**And, Gee Golly, dont we all just loooove being labeled as 'every other Christian' by self appointed 'holiness' Nazis whos totem poles keep stabbing everyone around them in the back???
Not to mention the whole fearfully and wonderfully made bit there in the Good Book...Hard to be like everyone else if we are all made individuals...unless one vacates individuality in the pursuit of Gothardism**
GROW UP.
**Darling, love of my life, sweet cheeks, angel love, Im growing just as fast as I gosh darn can.
(coffee appears to be increasing sarcasism and not so much the height. Guess 5'10" of beautiful chicky-roo just isnt tall enough. Go figure.**
Do you you have the guts to stand up and do ANYTHING significant in life?
**Do you have the guts to actually look at life without the Gothardized beer goggles on?
When you have, then come and talk to us about guts and significance and growing up. That conversation will sound less like frogs croaking like this last post and more like interesting and humorous discussion which is what the rest of us strive for.
Tootles...oh and Ps...Positive impact and Gothard are oxy morons...dont I just love using two of those words in the same sentence?!
Gothard..mor...you get the picture**
3 notes of personal testimony:
)I made a noose for myself when I was in ATI. By the grace of God I couldn't find anything in my room high enough to tie it to.
))This site, seen by some as being horrible, helped me realize a lot of falsehoods that I had accepted as a child because that was all anyone ever told me.
)))I share the gospel with unbelievers 100% more than when I was in ATI. Maybe because I can actually talk to them and go where they are.
No, I can't look at life without wearing the "Gothardite goggles". Why? Because I chose to live by scripture.
X-ATIA mom
Gothard does not equal the Scriptures
Thankyou so much for making Mr. Gothard's link available on your site. I didn't know that he had one.
A picture of Dr. Rath is shown. It is such a treat to see it. Eleven months after he performed my TLR our son was born. He is now 14 and truly is a blessing. And thankyou again for blessing me.
My Family was a Pilot Family. We went to work at HQ. for a period of time. I will say that if any family needs proof that ATI can be misguided or off base from what the Bible really states, just go work for Mr. Gothard. When you do you find that it's really unfair some times the way kids are treated. And also the way kids that know it all and just do what they are told are propped up and encouraged when they actully need a slap in the face. If you really want to know how we need to live our lifes, look no father then the Gospels of Christ. Oh i'm sorry Prostitutes really arnen't that great of a influence on your Children? Did you know they are hurting more then any of us will ever know? They need Christ just as much as I need him right now. Oh i'm sorry the Woman that had 5 husbands is not what family patern you want your kids to have? Well that is not the point, Christ loved her more then he ever loved the ones of us who live perfectly and do every little thing we are supposed to do.
Also For those of us who can't put God into 7 steps, (He is only the God of the whole universe, and is ruler of all.) I find comfort in a never conforming God and a creative God that uses what means he deams nessasary to do his will. I my self can't be put into a box and broken down, why should i think so arragantly that God can be put into 7, 9, 12, 150 steps of being understood when i am more complicated then 150 steps. If i am that much more complicated then Heaven, maybe, only knows how complicated and wonderful God is.
I know he takes me where ever i am every day. That is Soooo Freeing for me. That if i don't kneel a surtain way or what ever, i know i'm going to heaven. Sooo anyway
enough of the Rant.
Greatly enjoyed that last post.
After all this, as a "stolen"one, I don't even believe in God anymore. Even after Indy and Hq's. None of it is real to me. Im okay with that. After being in ATI, I don't want to go to heaven at all. Seriously.
Ati-Dads and Ati-Moms,
After ten years in ATI it took me ten years to deprogram all the folly I had built in to the way I lived my life. As a serious student of the Scriptures, while a part of the program or at Indy or HQ I consistently found myself having to explain clear speaking text on so many issues. You think you are doing the best thing for your children by demanding righteousness from them, but you are not giving them a framework within they can operate.
The principles Gothard espouses are like fences: excellent for animals or small children. But as your children grow, you must train them to think Biblically on their own - and in that Gothard's principles and standards become short sighted, limiting and eventually hostile to the joys of the Gospel.
A simple reading of the Scriptures teach a full orbed life: eating, drinking, dancing, celebrating - all foreshadowing the excellent feast which is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (after which we get to have really Divine Sex). But if we spend our lives thinking that everything physical is sinful, not only do we fail to prepare for that great celebration, we deny ourselves the glorious shadows which we now are priviledged to enjoy.
One simple example, then I'll close: I find it amusing that in the Old Testament, the Sabbath was a feast. Deuteronomy 15 says we are to set a part a portion of our tithe for the celebration of that feast, and that our tithe money should be spent on food and wine and even strong drink - whatsoever our hearts desire! We are to celebrate our union with YHWH in such a manner. But what does Gothard teach us about the Sabbath? That it is a fast. What God gave to us to celebrate, Gothard tells us to mourn. YHWH gave physical blessings, and Gothard says they are sins, that the godly man rejects God's blessings for his own understanding of righteousness.
Teach your children full orbed Christianity!
Rich Gall
http://www.thehighpost.com/weblog
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